Shadow's reactivity log

[snowbunny]

Ah, you know, I think I might have come across as more stressed than I actually feel these days. I have learned to stay calmer than I used to; there’s no benefit to me or my dogs if I get upset at it. I'm just trying to explain what it's like for the owner of "that dog". It takes a lot of management, planning and damage control, and I can very rarely relax on walks because I'm constantly looking for other dogs.

We've all had other dogs coming up to ours and being nasty, and know how it feels from that side, but when you're the owner of the dog that's being nasty, it's also really difficult. Especially when your dog is the sweetest creature known to man, except in these situations. It's tough to deal with it both in terms of management, but also emotionally. And I so rarely find an owner who recognises what I'm doing and goes even a little bit out of their way to help. Now, I don't expect it. But also, I'm so focussed on my own dog, I can blank the other owner. I may come across as rude or uncaring, but I'm really just putting all my energy into protecting us all. If there has been any contact (which is very, very rare), I will try to take a moment to check the dog is OK, but I actually know they are because I know the difference between this sort of noise and a real fight. Anyway, what am I supposed to do? Bring my dog closer so we can have a conversation? No, I have to get him out of there.

I met one great lady yesterday; she had a pit who was obviously not the best on leash, and they both looked anxious about us; I called out to her to ask which way she was going, and she was only going to the corner whereas we were going on past, so I asked her if she minded popping her dog behind a car there so we could pass. I had both Willow and Shadow with me. She did just that, I grabbed a handful of kibble which I put against his nose and drip-fed him as we scurried past. No stress, no disaster, because of an understanding owner.

Like I said, I'm not ranting, I am pretty resigned to our situation, and understand that other people don't understand. I'm just trying to explain a little bit why it might be that an owner of "that dog" behaves how they do, or appears rude. We're just dealing with a really difficult situation, and some people can manage to do that a little more graciously than others. We're all trigger stacking

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Your perspective is really helping me re-hab my own behaviour. Because here's the thing with Carbon: he's 99% solid off lead. He will do the 'quien es mas macho" posturing (i.e. standing on his toes, hackles raised, scratching at the ground) with larger dogs so I'm deducting 1%, but it's never escalated. What usually happens is he does his macho routine, then goes into fits of play bows. The other dog ignores him as young goofball, gives him a warning growl and Carbon backs off, or they both go into crazy play mode.

The same contact ON LEAD can end in Carbon barking like a maniac and lunging to get at the other dog. Granted this is very rare these days as LAT or just doing a U turn out of there (which I usually can do in my environment) works a charm. And to be fair to Carbon and the progress he's made, about 50% of the time, we can simply walk past the other dog just fine.

But what I'm guilty of - or HAVE been guilty of, is letting him run up to other dogs on lead. This usually happens if he is off lead anyway and has gotten too far engaged with the distraction (other dog) to have his recall work. I don't feel good about doing this but I also know that if I call him, he won't come...so why call/whistle?

The thing is, my thinking in the past has been that the worst is that he's a nuisance to the other dog or owner until I can catch up to him and leash him and apologise.

However, reading about Shadow makes me think that having Carbon run up to another dog could be much more than a nuisance. I simply can't let it happen, either using a long line or keeping Carbon much closer to me. We've gotten to work on this much more in the past couple weeks and to his credit, he's now checking in even more and when he sees something interesting up ahead now sits and looks at me for an ok most of the time (still not 100% though).

Now thinking from Shadow's perspective, I wonder if I should really not let Carbon off lead until he's 100% in terms of not approaching other dogs without permission...

Sorry, this post is kind of stream of consciousness...but now I'm wondering...for you, what would be the best solution when it comes to other dog's behaviour? So say Shadow and Carbon would meet on a trail or in town, either in an already off lead or on lead situation. How could I handle or train him to be handled in a way where you would think, "They've done their homework...that went really well."?

 

[Emily]

for you, what would be the best solution when it comes to other dog's behaviour? So say Shadow and Carbon would meet on a trail or in town, either in an already off lead or on lead situation. How could I handle or train him to be handled in a way where you would think, "They've done their homework...that went really well."?

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking!

@snowbunny thanks for sharing your story. It certainly helps people like me - with an "it's ok, she's friendly" type dog.

 

[Xena Dog Princess]

I've been thinking about your most recent post all day, Fiona. You'd think all people would see that you're "managing" a dog and react accordingly, and I'm sorry that you're now resigned to people just...not reacting accordingly. You really are doing a fabulous job.

If I meet an unfamiliar dog on my regular (on-lead) walk I now call ahead "does your dog need space?" and go from there. If dog needs space then I usually have to grab Xena by the harness and walk her past because "the forbidden dog must be greeted"

 

[Atemas]

It is very thought provoking @snowbunny. On my walk last night with Red, we suddenly came across a young man and his dog coming towards us. No time for me to do anything but I just knew Red would react - she just wants to say hello but she lunges and I don’t want her doing that. I managed to get on the grass which is currently mud (we had a lot of rain yesterday). Red pulled so hard towards the dog, I slid across the mud. I apologised to the dog owner but he just walked on not acknowledging at all. I know I need to tighten up my training - sometimes you just want to have a relaxing walk!

 

[snowbunny]

for you, what would be the best solution when it comes to other dog's behaviour? So say Shadow and Carbon would meet on a trail or in town, either in an already off lead or on lead situation. How could I handle or train him to be handled in a way where you would think, "They've done their homework...that went really well."?

Thanks for asking
If they meet off-lead, the best thing is to give them space, let them posture and sort themselves out. Don't try and distract, call your dog or anything once they have engaged. That leads to unnatural body language and adds stress to the dogs, which might escalate behaviour. If the dogs disengage, call yours then, heap praise on him for dealing with the situation in an appropriate and mature way. Posturing is normal for male dogs, and not something to be concerned about in itself. "Quién es mas macho", indeed
If they scuffle, then I defy anyone not to shout at the dogs. It's not optimum, but it's human nature. To be perfectly honest, the best thing is probably let them do it, it'll sort itself out after a few seconds and they'll go on their merry way, having determined who is "mas macho". But I can't do that, and if I were the owner of the other dog who saw me just standing there, I would think I was an idiot. So, I call or go and grab my dog - and this always stops the scuffle. Another indication that it's nothing more than handbags at dawn. At that point, stick your dog on lead, shove food in his face and get him out of there. I'll be doing the same. I don't need any social interaction with you as I'll be busy managing my own dog. Other dog owners might appreciate a word or two of "bloody stupid dogs".

If they are on-lead, they don't meet. Simple as. Squidge can meet some dogs that we know on lead, my others never ever ever ever. If you suddenly appear in front of me, you'll see me try and get distance, however that is possible. I would appreciate you stopping to let me sort myself out, or help by creating distance yourself, whatever that looks like. I would go giddy with appreciation if you managed your dog so he wasn't staring at mine. Shadow is far better able to cope with dogs who obviously have no interest in him. If they have to pass on a narrow street, I'd appreciate you putting your dog on the side that means they are most separated, so we are passing handler to handler, with the dogs on the outside, and again, keeping your dog's attention off mine. If you do all that, I will give you a heart-felt "thank you so much" as we pass. I always thank thoughtful handlers.

If Shadow is on lead and your dog is off and runs up to him, don't get offended if I shout at him. I don't do that as much these days, but other owners will - because they're afraid for their own dog. People can get very upset when their friendly dog is shouted at, but the handler with the other dog is just trying to keep it away from theirs - they're protecting their own dog, but they might also be protecting yours. You might feel embarrassed and that can cause people to go on the offensive, but try to remain calm and understanding as to why the handler might be acting as they are, get your dog as soon as possible, and take any vitriol with a pinch of salt. The handler is just scared - we give our dogs the understanding that they can react out of fear, and I think we would do well to extend that to the handlers, too.
I don't shout at other owners these days, but plenty of "us" still do.

I will put Shadow behind me, do my policeman hand and say "NO" or "STOP". I might body block him, loom over him - as much as I can with my diminutive stature! If he doesn't respond to this, I might even growl at him. Please realise I am doing this for a good reason, and collect your dog as fast as you can. And don't, whatever you do, say those words. Hearing "It's OK, he's friendly" makes us want to punch you in the face. Repeatedly. Hearing, "I'm coming to get him!" is music to our ears

To be honest, it's a case of looking at me and thinking "WTF". What's The Function*? What am I trying to achieve with the things I'm doing? How can you help me achieve that in a way that suits us both? I certainly don't expect people to go out of their way to make my life easier, but if they can make an insignificant change that helps, I appreciate it so much!

* © Dr Susan Friedman

To be honest, Carbón sounds like a normal boy dog. Posturing is totally normal. He may have some "frustrated greeter" stuff going on with his on lead behaviour, and you do want to address that because the frustration causes icky feelings which can become worse over time and lead to real problems, but what you've said sounds well within the range of normal, especially considering his age and history.

That was War And Peace, and I have more to say (quelle surprise) but changing topic slightly, so I'll do that in a separate post

 

[snowbunny]

It certainly helps people like me - with an "it's ok, she's friendly" type dog.

I have one of these, too! So I understand your side as well. Whooo, go me, both sides of the divide!
Oh my gosh, Squidge was a nightmare for running up to other dogs when she was a baby. I had those encounters and I even said those words *hangs head in shame*. People appeared unexpectedly, I didn't have a chance to get her on lead and she ran up. Our worst encounter was with a Shiba Inu - these dogs are known for screaming, and this thing was screaming his head off at her, as she pranced around, play-bowing like a crazy thing. The owner was trying to kick her, which she thought was a brilliant game. I was cross with him, he was cross with me. He wasn't helping at all, because she really thought it was a game. If he'd turned and walked away, she'd have been fine. But, he was scared and trying to protect his dog. I get it, and he didn't have the understanding to do anything else. I get that, too.

But, y'know, these things happen. You take it as information and you move on from the incident. Information: I need to work on her not running up to other dogs. She was a baby, I couldn't possibly expect her not to do just that at her age, but what? I'm not going to keep her on a line all the time for those occasional times she sees another dog. That's just unreasonable. But I put a butt-load of effort into her recall, into her engagement with me, and her looking at me when she sees another dog. She also gets to play with other dogs a lot - but only ever after she has looked at me for the "Go play" cue. Because nine times out of ten she gets to play when she does this, it has become a well reinforced behaviour. If she doesn't get to play, she gets a lot of other reinforcement to make up for it. She also knows that on lead, she very rarely gets to greet, so not greeting becomes default. Again, a lot of reinforcement for engaging with me around other dogs. She still finds this difficult, but we're working on it all the time. Just yesterday, we walked past a GSD in the street, and she looked straight up at me with her expression saying, "Did you see, Mum? Did you see?! Where's my biscuit?!".
When she does get to play with other dogs, I work on recalling her from them, then releasing her back to play. So she's really pretty solid now with recalling before she gets to play now.

But she's not a robot, she's still a young and super friendly dog who loves other dogs and other people. So sometimes all he training I've done is for nothing, and she'll run up to another dog. So I do what I can to get her back as quickly as possible, which these days is normally her recall whistle once she's had a quick sniff, but I will make it very clear to the other owner that I am sorting it out.

So, no, I don't expect people with these dogs to keep them on lines all the time. I appreciate dogs aren't truly "under our control" the whole time, it's simply not possible in off leash environments. We can do what we can with training to make them as likely as possible to do what we wish, but they have minds of their own and can choose less than ideal behaviours at times. Hey, don't we all?

But I find that those people who shout, "It's OK, he's friendly" are really saying "He has no recall"! So if you say that, be aware that your words are probably being judged not in the positive way you may intend them, but actually as an expression of the holes in your training

 

[Charlie]

Just thinking, could the muzzle increase Shadow's reactivity in certain situations Fiona? The fight or flight might be more intense. I'm sure you've got that sorted. I know you have everything covered but have you ever thought of seeking a behaviourist as an extra pair of eyes which might reveal something you don't see because Shadow is your dog? Great write up, very clear and helpful. xx

 

[Stacia]

@snowbunny, I have been there with my last Lab and to some extent Rourke and it does get better as they age. I do believe it is the genetics of some of the dogs, certainly is with my two. If my friend and I see other dogs come on a narrow path, we stand aside and let them go by. If a dog 'attacks' Rourke who is innocent at that time, I do understand and don't get 'sniffy', we dog owners should stick together and understand dog behaviour.

 

[Jacqui-S]

we dog owners should stick together and understand dog behaviour.

We should. That is why your stuff is so helpful Fiona.
Even we struggle to see signs and to know what to do and we are a well motivated bunch.
It really helps to hear this layed out so clearly, getting an insight into being an owner of a reactive/scare/frightened/aggressive dog is invaluable.

 

[Jen]

My go to with dogs on a lead, rather than put Stanley on his lead is put him in a sit/stay and do a “watch me”.

I find if I just pop him on his lead and carry on walking past he will still want to interact and show interest in the other dog whereas he knows if he’s a good boy he’s going to get so many bisky bones for sitting nice and watching mummy.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

If they meet off-lead, the best thing is to give them space, let them posture and sort themselves out. Don't try and distract, call your dog or anything once they have engaged. That leads to unnatural body language and adds stress to the dogs, which might escalate behaviour. If the dogs disengage, call yours then, heap praise on him for dealing with the situation in an appropriate and mature way. Posturing is normal for male dogs, and not something to be concerned about in itself. "Quién es mas macho", indeed

This is really helpful, because I'm always turning over in my head how I should handle a surprise meeting. By that I mean Carbon is already off lead and another dog appears in a way that Carbon is already in meet mode before I've figured out that I need to get him next to me and focused away from the other dog. My experience with Brogan taught me that the best thing to do is appear totally zen on the outside...but inside I'm still thinking "Oh no, oh no! Should I try to grab him?!" Old habits die hard!

If they are on-lead, they don't meet. Simple as. Squidge can meet some dogs that we know on lead, my others never ever ever ever. If you suddenly appear in front of me, you'll see me try and get distance, however that is possible. I would appreciate you stopping to let me sort myself out, or help by creating distance yourself, whatever that looks like. I would go giddy with appreciation if you managed your dog so he wasn't staring at mine. Shadow is far better able to cope with dogs who obviously have no interest in him. If they have to pass on a narrow street, I'd appreciate you putting your dog on the side that means they are most separated, so we are passing handler to handler, with the dogs on the outside, and again, keeping your dog's attention off mine. If you do all that, I will give you a heart-felt "thank you so much" as we pass. I always thank thoughtful handlers.

Boy oh boy do I wish everyone would follow this. Even dogs who don't have reactivity issues. Happy to say we're already either doing this or trying to do this. I have slip ups where I don't notice Carbon fixating in time to engage him before meltdown but frankly that's on me, not on Carbon.

To be honest, Carbón sounds like a normal boy dog. Posturing is totally normal. He may have some "frustrated greeter" stuff going on with his on lead behaviour, and you do want to address that because the frustration causes icky feelings which can become worse over time and lead to real problems, but what you've said sounds well within the range of normal, especially considering his age and history.

I really think he can overcome all of his reactivity. It's down to me (see above) and getting some consistency. i've been way too scattered in the last month. When I was consistent last summer, he was 99% non-reactive.

I think our month or so of being near Padstow will really help. That is dog town extraordinaire (as you know!) and primo training ground for teaching what I want. If he can stroll through town on a weekend without flipping his lid, I will call it a win! Of course, we may have to extend our stay in order to achieve this lofty goal. That would be TERRIBLE.

Sorry, I've hijacked Shadow's thread for a bit...but thanks again, this has been really helpful!

 

[snowbunny]

I think our month or so of being near Padstow will really help. That is dog town extraordinaire (as you know!) and primo training ground for teaching what I want. If he can stroll through town on a weekend without flipping his lid, I will call it a win! Of course, we may have to extend our stay in order to achieve this lofty goal. That would be TERRIBLE.

I might come join you!
Being somewhere where there are loads of dogs and loads of space is really good for Shadow, and he is so much more relaxed with other dogs when we’re walking in the UK because those are the kinds of places we go.
Harlyn Bay beach is amazing when the tide is out even a little way because it’s huge.

 

[snowbunny]

Just thinking, could the muzzle increase Shadow's reactivity in certain situations Fiona? The fight or flight might be more intense. I'm sure you've got that sorted. I know you have everything covered but have you ever thought of seeking a behaviourist as an extra pair of eyes which might reveal something you don't see because Shadow is your dog?

No, the muzzle makes no difference; he only has positive associations with it. The only thing I have to watch with it is that Squidge doesn’t start hanging off it
I don’t think Shadow has any idea it had anything to do with his reactivity and it doesn’t restrict him in any way. If I left it on all the time, he would get a negative association with it, as it would be frustrating for him to not be able to pick up cones as he normally does on walks.

I have talked to two behaviourists previously, and also recently taken two courses with Dr Amy Cook - I intend to continue with private lessons with her (online) when the snow allows us a bit more freedom of movement.

 

[Cath]

Here is a blog about muzzles. Hope you don't mind Fiona.

Mean Dogs Wear Muzzles! (And Other Misconceptions)

 

[snowbunny]

Hope you don't mind Fiona.

Not at all! I read that the other day

There is a huge stigma about muzzles which is a shame.

 

[Cath]

I love the colourful Bumas muzzles

 

[Charlie]

There is a huge stigma about muzzles which is a shame.

It's probably a lack of understanding. Until it was brought up on the forum I didn't understand the reasons and thought a dog wearing a muzzle must be aggressive Now I know differently and can pass that information on if I need to. xx

 

[Cupcase]

You're writing Cupars story. Thank you.

 

[Atemas]

There is a huge stigma about muzzles which is a shame.

Yes Sky used to wear hers because of poo eating which made her very ill. I hated the thing as I perceived people to be thinking - aggressive dog. She is the most placid dog ever but I still found it hard. We don’t bother with the muzzle anymore - she seems to have moved beyond the need.