Biting and mouthing is really wearing me down

You might expect this thread title for a five month old puppy, not one who is nearly 15 months! It's compete exhausting. Bear jumps up, grabs my sleeves, arms, or anything else he gets hold of, every single day. I've been turning my back, folding my arms and being a tree for over a year now. then he just jumps up at my back and grabs my t shirt instead. He tears my clothes still, and leaves bruises on my arms. He will often 'drop' but then goes back to it again.
Occasionally it might be boredom, but he's just done it now after an hour long walk plus a nice play in the garden with a friend's dogs. He should be exhausted.
I'm at the end of my tether some days and right now, I could just cry. Or give him away. I love him dearly, but he is such hard work.
Every day we do sniffing, scattering, kongs, puzzle toys, some training, often a bit of scent work. Some days less than others.
I should add, he rarely does it to OH, but then I'm at home with him all day, not him.
 
And then there's this. Every day, sometimes while he's looking out the window, sometimes when there's food on the counters, but right now - for no apparent reason. He's such a vocal dog but this is just pitiful. And I played back a few seconds of this video, and as soon as he heard himself crying, he went into hyper overdrive again biting my arm.

 
I'm beginning to think that there's something wrong with me. Why don't I understand what he needs? What am I missing with him?Am I misinterpreting this behaviour , and he's actually in some sort of discomfort, or even pain? Am I giving him too much, or not enough attention?
 
I know I can be a bit of a bore about this, but I bloody hate the "turn your back on them" advice that is so pervasive. It's a nonsense for so many reasons. If "it works", it almost certainly hasn't actually "worked" at all, your dog just grew out of it.

In this case, is it working? No. So why are you still expecting it to? Why keep trying with something that has no effect?

I don't have the answer as to why he is doing it, but it is obvious that the behaviour is (or the consequences of the behaviour are) fulfilling a need somehow, otherwise it wouldn't have persisted. It sounds like you're at the point where having some eyes-on professional advice would be warranted.
 
Natalie, I don't really have any advice - just to say that it's crazy how different they are, isn't it! When he bites/jumps at you have you considered a time out? I'm wondering if he is might be over tired and acting out? There are lots of training tips online about appropriate time outs. For Primrose, I have established nap times - it has helped a lot when she is acting nuts. Cover going down means time to sleep. Something I never ever needed to do with Quinn. Is he fully free range? I def think a 1:1 trainer to come in and observe would be useful.

The other thing I will say is that I think the second/subsequent dogs harder to deal with in some ways than the first dog because you are constantly comparing to your older/previous dogs instead of just rolling with it not knowing the alternative. I definitely feel more frustrated by things that "Quinn never did" or "she shouldn't be doing this at this age anymore". :hug:
 
I also agree re a trainer/behaviourist . I liken some young dogs to children trying our patience when any attention is better than none even when the attention is given for the wrong reasons . I`m so sorry that you are having to deal with this x
 
I’m sorry you are feeling demoralised, but I can tell you that most people with animals struggle at some point or other. Young puppies jump and mouth generally from over tiredness but it has been reinforced in some way when with you so that he has continued with the behaviour.
Some dogs are easy to train and others are more demanding. Nothing to do with your training abilities, but remember it is not your job to entertain your dog, it is his job to learn to settle himself.
 
Location
Norfolk
Occasionally it might be boredom, but he's just done it now after an hour long walk plus a nice play in the garden with a friend's dogs. He should be exhausted.
I’m sure somewhere there is an almost identical post that I wrote about Ripple (possibly on the 'other place' ) , and he was probably even older than Bear is now. And I know that it is no joke having a full grown labrador leaping at you, biting and ripping clothes. I also contemplated rehoming Ripple as I felt I could not give him what he needed.

I tried to divert his energies with gundog training, agility and other activities - I have come to the conclusion that this wasn’t necessarily the best thing for him. The agility we were asked to leave, gundog training only worked with dummies as he ate the birds, plus in the end at group classes his excitement levels were so high that I was frightened he would have a heart attack (and other people complained he was too disruptive).

I now believe that all the extra stimulation I thought was helping Ripple was actually making him worse, and he was unable to control himself resulting in the biting etc. I think he needed a much calmer atmosphere with less stimulation, probably my reaction to his behaviour (upset, stressed and angry) also made things worse.

Obviously my situation is the reverse of yours in that Ripple was the lone dog and then Toffee was introduced, but I put in place very strict rules when I got two dogs as I knew that two like Ripple would be horrendous. I decided all training would be very calm and largely on an individual basis, each dog had their own space and any behaviour that seemed to be getting out of control I would remove them from the situation. I also had to retrain myself not to become stressed or I would (if possible) remove myself from them until I felt more in control.

Ripple still has his moments, even brushing him acts as a massive stimulus but interestingly I’ve found that brushing the two dogs together he’s better behaved because he realises I’ll stop brushing him if he mouths, and brush Toffee instead.

I don’t know whether any of this is any use but I totally empathise with what you are feeling. I can say that Ripple has mostly grown out of this but it’s been a long, long journey with him that I wouldn’t wish on anyone else.
 
it is not your job to entertain your dog, it is his job to learn to settle himself.
...or your job to teach him how to settle himself...? We are the ones who buy the dogs and expect them to fit into our lives. That's not their choice and it's not always in their nature. Ergo, it's our responsibility to show them how, not theirs to simply "get it".

But either way, the fact is, he has this behaviour engrained, it has a function, even if you aren't aware what that is, and actually because you aren't aware what that is, I think that having a helping hand would be really useful to give you some tools to deal with it.
 

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
He’s a teenager!

Heres the advice from my puppy supervisor, well worth sharing I think.

Long post 🐾🙂

—-

Adolescence – Don’t Fight It!

Adolescent dogs love to get your goat! Often, their greatest pleasure is getting you wound up over some trivial matter, such as refusing to have their paws wiped, stubbornly ignoring your commands to come in from the garden or playing “keep away” with your slippers or TV remote.
Remember, what fuels the misbehaviour is the conflict itself, so avoiding the battle is far more important than trying to win it. This means staying calm and refusing to get engaged in a battle of physical strength or a shouting match with your dog. Instead use your superior brain power to find a way around it.

For example, your dog has a tantrum and starts biting the towel whilst you are wiping his paws. Instead of getting frustrated and engaging in a wrestling match, stop, line up 4 treats on a surface where he can see them and give him 1 treat per paw for good behaviour. It may feel like bribery, but the positive result will prove that rewards work fast.
Imagine your dog runs under the dining table with a tissue. He tries to tempt you to come and take it from him – which you know will end up in confrontation. Don’t engage! Instead, keep your dignity and prevent the situation from escalating by simply walking away and ignoring him.

It’s NOT dominance!
If your dog repeatedly performs a behaviour which you find infuriating, such as barking, attention seeking, or pulling on the lead, ask yourself what’s reinforcing it.
These are not symptoms of dominance. Your dog is not trying to challenge you for leadership. It’s far more obvious and simple than that.
Dogs repeat behaviours that get rewarded
Rewards include eye contact, vocal contact and physical contact. They also include you getting wound up, cross and upset.

If your dog is getting any of these rewards for his misbehaviour, you need to change tactics and stop giving them immediately! Fold your arms, look away and walk out of the room if practically possible. Being ignored is a major consequence for dogs.

Don’t nag!

Question: What happens when you nag someone?
Answer: They ignore you!
Beware of nagging your dog. It’s nearly always better to be calm and quiet so that your dog listens when you do give him a cue. If you find that you are repeating yourself (Fido, come! Fido, stop that! Fido, no!) think about what triggers the behaviour you don’t like and find a strategy to prevent it. This is not giving in – it’s sensible management and will help to maintain a positive relationship between you.

Keep training!

During adolescence, it’s not unusual for owners to wonder if any of the training they did with their puppy was really worthwhile. If it seems like your dog has suddenly lost his hearing, or his desire to do anything to please you – don’t panic! The answer is to make sure that you keep on training.
Go back to basics and reinforce simple tasks, such as “sit” which you can reward your dog for getting right.
Good training can solve all of these irritating habits and more. However, in the meantime, it’s important to prevent them from happening to ensure that your dog doesn’t have a chance to practice them. For example, putting your dog on a lead when visitors arrive is safe and practical. Behaviour management like this may not be all singing and dancing, but it is effective and will save your sanity!

Use rewards wisely

Not all rewards are the same. If you had to list your dog’s favourite things, you might find this ranking would be:
Meaty sticks
Marrowbone biscuit
Squeaky toy
His own kibble

Use this information wisely. If your dog finds “sit” on cue easy, then praise or a piece of dry food is adequate. However, if you want him to do something he finds more difficult, such as coming away from playing with other dogs, you will need to use treats at the top of the list – and lots of them!

How much fun are you?

Once off the lead, your dog is constantly weighing up whether you are worth paying attention to. If you are dull, cross, indifferent or half-hearted, your dog will make the easy decision that everything else is more attractive.
Make sure you are the centre of your dog’s world. Take a toy and play games with your dog, engage in hide and seek, make sudden changes of direction and be FUN!

Recall Rules

Praise is not enough – take really good treats with you and if they do a great recall give them a jackpot reward.
Walk with a friend if their dog has good recall – avoid those that don’t!

Don’t call your dog if you know he is likely to ignore you (i.e. just started to play with another dog)
Practice recall regularly, not just at the end of a free run or if you see a distraction.
Always be positive, even if your dog is slow to return – he will simply learn to ignore you if you reprimand him.

Your clever dog

Finally, it’s so important to realise that while many adolescent dogs can be difficult or challenging, they are also great fun, bright and entertaining.

Enjoy this period in your dog’s life and help set the scene for the adult they are about to become.

🐾🙂
 
There's nothing wrong with you. You have a juvenile Labrador they are a holes.puppies can/are difficult and so are young dogs. Rory was an awful puppy and a worse juvenile Iver is being a bit of a dick at the moment but was an angel pup.they are all different I've had a few now. He doesn't know what he needs either there's nothing wrong with him it's just difficult being his age. Ivers more excitable jumping up and biting too but I've been here before so I ignore how upsetting it is and encourage him to do something else. If he bites the lead or my bum when we are walking I let him play with his ball. I walk faster sing do anything. I also try to get him to do stuff he's good at like sit. It will get better I know I'm horribly up beat but it does improve. It's "teenage puppy blues"is a thing too, it's not you. Bears pretty normal, he's very like Rory was. I've had different problems at different times with all my dogs. I also don't know how to say this so I'll be blunt. My dogs react to my periods the entire dogs only. They get over protect and anxious and can be ott they jump up me more. I know about 2 days before I actually bleed because Rory guards me from Chris and Iver and then iver guards me form Chris and Rory. I know it sounds nuts but Chris has realised it's happening too. Rory was biting me until he was over 2 I thought it would never end but it did. I never really think about it now he's a wonderful dog. Sorry I'm talking crap, basically enjoy the good forget the bad it's not you. It will get better you will have bad days but they do start to disappear. Iver thinks it's funny to bite my bum.
 
We have had some 1-1training sessions but they have been online and of course he was angelic throughout them. I'm still on a waiting list for proper training. I know his 'triggers' which will cause him to start this behaviour, but they are now so numerous it's become difficult to manage. And sometimes there's literally no visual or sound trigger that I am aware of. He must have this massive sudden surge of adrenaline which sends him over threshold - it's like fight or flight but with no aggression. I know he's not aggressive - he is actually really gentle when taking treats, and has good bite inhibition otherwise he would have chopped my arm off by now.

I just don't know what I'm meant to do when your dog has got hold of your sleeve and is pulling you towards him. If it's a cardigan or dressing gown I take it off to kill the game. But that's no good with a top or dress. There's loads of stuff I just ignore - if he steals anything of low value I don't chase him or bribe it away from him - he will often drop and I'll give it straight back to him. He can also settle quite nicely at times, but it's when he decides. I sometimes think he may be overtired, but now if I close the crate door he starts the whining. Entitled, willful, teenager-tank.

the other thing is it's really upsetting Monty - who I actually think might be bordering on depression right now and I honestly now believe, getting Bear has not been good for him. He barks, gets antsy at Bear but is also completely jealous of any attention Bear gets. Doesn't want to be with him, doesn't want to not be anywhere he is.

I have been poor at training them separately, but I suppose I do take the easy (quieter) way our and tend to train them together - except on LLW training with Bear. OH will be back at home from July, and this will certainly make it easier to do separate training with him.
 

Joy

Location
East Sussex
Sorry you're having these struggles @Natalie . I wonder if it would help to keep an diary for a few days - exactly what and when Bear eats, what and when his activities with you are, what and when his engagement periods with Monty are, what and when his jumping/biting etc periods are, where and when his rest periods are and so on. This might help you to see what his biting is in response to and also see any patterns of when he is calmer so you can make changes to his routine.

If you decide to consult a behaviourist I think the more detail you can give them the better they will be able to help you, so it might be valuable for that too.
 

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
I'm beginning to think that there's something wrong with me. Why don't I understand what he needs? What am I missing with him?Am I misinterpreting this behaviour , and he's actually in some sort of discomfort, or even pain? Am I giving him too much, or not enough attention?
I entirely hear your frustration and sadness here and I’m sorry, I think this could be any of us as much as it might feel like it’s your ‘failing’. Bear is a huge character and clearly has his own ways of doing some things that - at the moment - are a bit of a mystery. Kipper also sings in a similar way to Bear, it’s his little frustration noise that I’m learning means he’s after something I’m not understanding (more often than not it’s to play with him!). I think @snowbunny nailed it with
I think that having a helping hand would be really useful to give you some tools to deal with it
- for me, it’d be the lack of knowing what’s driving it that I’d find exceptionally frustrating, and so having that external perspective to break it down would be so helpful. Also just to take the heat out of it - I’m certain it would give you a lot of reassurance in many of the things you’re doing, but would bring greater clarity on the unknowns.
There’s so much advice out there but talking to a pro might be the best route to tackling the issues.
 

Candy

Biscuit Tin Guardian
Nothing to add to all the good advice that everyone else has offered except to say that I'm sorry you're going through this and it makes me realise how lucky I've been with GGJ. Solstice had to be always on lead around people due to her jumping up until she was about two, then she started to calm down. Sending :hug:
 
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