Medicating anxious dogs

Good luck with the Clomicalm. I hated it for Willow, it gave her real swings in mood, the timing had to be spot on for it to be effective, and she seemed to have awful crashes. But, different drugs work for different dogs, so here's to hoping it's good for Shamas.
 
Good luck with the Clomicalm. I hated it for Willow, it gave her real swings in mood, the timing had to be spot on for it to be effective, and she seemed to have awful crashes. But, different drugs work for different dogs, so here's to hoping it's good for Shamas.
Thanks for that input--I'll set an alarm for his meds, to keep it on a clock.

He's already having swings in his mood....he goes from perfectly chill to barking his head off, and overstimulated at the drop of a hat. I've asked Michelle to put the dog reactivity training on hold, and focus on a coping toolbox for him to start with, while we wait for his new meds to kick in.

I think we're going to run him at least once a week....he can't walk outside right now, and he'll benefit from his time at the training studio. It's heated, and it's just him working, part of which involves walking in circles on a padded surface in a warm room. We tried taking the dogs to the park, and Shamas' legs went stiff from the cold....had to support him with his harness to get back to the car. I think I'm going to get a memory foam mattress to line the floor of his "cave" in the living room, so he's got a warm space to lay unbothered. We had pulled the couch forward for him to have a place away from the puppy, and he goes in there often.
 
So far, no noticeable side effects from the new medication

He's getting it as close as I can manage to 8am, 8pm.

If I work morning, he gets the am dose at 7:25 when I take my meds before leaving.

He likes the pill pockets I bought...comes to join me at the counter when I pull out the pill bottles, and patiently waits for his own dose.


Had to put of his therapy because of isolation and the following drastic decrease to our income....need to get mortgage covered and pay bills. Can't afford $100/session right now....every time we isolate it costs us about $1000. We have isolated twice this month. Ouch!
 
Shamas is calmer, but has become a grumbly old man. Still struggling to walk....there's a new apartment building going up and he refuses to go out when the work crew is there.

We're taking him to Canadian tire or chapters twice a week for a dawdle through the store. Meanwhile, I wander off with Angel for something a little more brisk.
 
Shamas is still barking quite a lot. It's very frustrating. I'm using "quiet" before barks the way the trainer said. But I'm also using a handheld device that I can beep at the time of him barking, to get him back to me. The thing we've always found is that once he started, he couldn't hear us. so a beep and "No Bark" to break his attention, followed by calling him to me seems to work. Then he'll happily run through the calm down routine with me, including a treat scatter in another room, and some basic sit-lay-treat to keep his attention off the


we've not been able to line up our schedules with the trainer's. It's a repeat of the last time we tried to use a trainer for him. I think I need to find one that does housecalls.....my personal schedule is fairly standard but hubby's is fluid. They make it. post it, and then change it a few days later to cover gaps left by others in his department.

The other thing I REALLY struggle with is this treat-training thing. Somehow I'm supposed to get his attention on me, using treats, which I feed while managing his nervous breakdown, and holding the leash in the other hand from where he's walking. Which means.....He's got 4-6feet of leash to react on, and I'm relying on food to stop him from going after the dog that's coming towards him? Am I missing something??

Left to my own devices, I walk him on a traffic handle, because I know I have approximately 2-3 seconds to stop him from having a reaction. and if he starts to react and doesnt have room to lunge, he'll follow me away fromt he other dog. No treats..because he's far too stressed to take them in that situation anyway, and I'm far to concerned with removing him FROM the situation...because 9timesout of ten, the other dog owner is still walking towards us, and if I don't get us out of dodge, Shamas is going to try to do something about the dog and owner encroaching on his space. I'm not concerned at that point with feeding him, or changing his mind about how he feels about the other dog. I'm concerned with keeping everyone safe, and Shamas stress levels down


Plus...Angel....she'll absolutely walk at my side, as long as I'm feeding her tidbits every 2-3 seconds. But if my hand isnt a feedbag, she's off after every leaf and squirrel. Been this way since puppy class. There's been no improvement trying to wean her off treats. She's either got her face in my hand, walking down the street...or she's chsing leaves.


I feel like I'm doing it wrong, because the dogs don't seem to be learning much of anything with treats. Perhaps it's because I'm so distracted trying to teach them. I can't relax and train...I can relax and walk, I can reward good behavior, or a job well done. But I know my timing is off, and I'm always stressed out when I try to mark and reward.
 
Shamas has developed a sore on his nose from the muzzle.

I thought perhaps it was from wearing it for so long yesterday, as he was having a good day as far as his issues go...so on the way home from the vets, I let him have his head. I let him lead me around for a good hour and a half before he stopped and said he was tired and all done walking. I knew when I gave him his head that there was a good chance he'd stop too far from home to walk, so I planned on calling a cab to get back. Called for our cab, and told the driver he was trained to sit in the trunk of an SUV, or the back seat of a car. The cabbie, who drives a beautifully detailed new SUV, was quite pleased to put him in the far back of the vehicle, where he could lay on the floor and not the leather apaulstry.

I did have to lift him in, as he couldn't make the jump on his own...but he was quite happy to settle down in the back for the ride. I also lifted him down, given his dodgy wrists. He's a good boy, and is quickly getting the hang of being helped in and out of vehicles. We're considering one of those harnesses meant to lift handicapped dogs--it goes on the front, and also one for the back hips, with a lifting strap between them.

I rechecked his muzzle today, and it looks like what happened is that where I clipped the safety strap to the collar, then clipped the collar to the leash, when the collar spins, it pulls the muzzle down to rub his nose. So we'll probably want a collar separate from his normal one, for walking. Perhaps I'll get a new Martingale- he's always walked beautifully on those, but his leather one got too tight when he put on weight.

I also called a trainer that the vet suggested after I expressed my frustration at treat-based training. This trainer is working with one of the staff members, and she comes to the house--which I feel is what we need, since historically, Shamas makes progress in the controlled environment, but it not only doesn't translate to the real world, but he gets more reactive after sessions. PAwsitively was working in the studio with him, but the dogs coming in and out of the studio drove him batty in the parking lot. Once in, he was fine--barely reacted to their dog. But it's a controlled environment, and he's used to going to Petsmart, and stores, where he does come across dogs indoors. Dogs indoors don't pose a threat to him. Dogs on my block do.

From talking to the new trainer, we agreed to pay by session for start-see how he responds to her style before committing to a plan. She's got her own dummy dogs, and can arrange situations where he'll see them, while responding to and treating his issues. She'll take the lead to guage how much of his reaction is him, how much is me, and how much is the two of us together. She'll be focusing on leash manners, and confidence-building so that he doesn't feel the need to react.

What I'm looking for is a relaxed walk, where he can see, and ignore other dogs on the street. He's gotten much better over the last year, and I think we're starting from a good point. The puppy's helped--I usuallly swing wide with Shamas while her owner walks right on past and Angel does her wiggly puppy thing. He's seen that nothing happens to her when she walks right up to other dogs, and his threshold is much less than it used to be. I only need swing about 15feet now, rather than all the way over the road. She wants to see how he does without "safety in numbers" since I have been able to pack walk him in parks, and on trails without issues. Then she was talking about moving from sidewalks to parks, once he can handle her hand-picked dogs in normal settings.
 
New trainer comes today..and it's already starting out rough. a lot of alarm barking, and hyper-vigilance. If she wants to see him react to other dogs, she's got a good day for it!

I suppose that's a good thing...the last two trainers only had my word on his behavior--in the studio he doesn't melt down, lunge, bark or growl. He stresses, but stays calm. This one's coming to my house, to work on my street--exactly where Shmas has his problems.

Knowing how "well"(read sarcasm here) Shamas takes new things....I already introduced him to the slip lead, and have been walking him on it for a week or more. Same rules as his old leash, until the trainer introduces others.

I was thinking that throwing at him a new person, dogs, AND gear all in one go would be too much and he'd probably shut down and not learn anything. ESPECIALLY if the new gear was added while she has the lead. He is at least used to his lead being handed over at the vets office so strangers taking his lead shouldnt cause "*too much* undue stress
 
So it looks like I've done well on the anxiety front--shamas' dog aggression is not fear-based. He's cocky, and needs to be humbled a little. That's what the trainer says. If he was fearful, he'd not hold his tail so high, or his ears forward.

So when I see his ears go up, and before the tail goes, I'm to start taking steps backward, while letting go of the short end of the lead--this will cause him to self-interrupt when he reaches the end, and turn to see what's up. Then, I change directions and circle him back around to try again. repeat as many times as necessary until he looks but doesn't react. Praise that. Look, don't act.

Because Shamas wears the muzzle, can't effectively take treats, and won't check-in, we're trying to teach him through the leash to pay attention. Because he's an anxious dog to start, we don't want to tug, yank, or otherwise startle him. So we're working on just teaching him through natural consequence that the end of the leash is the end of that direction. In order to resume the walk, you must return to my side.

This method looks to be working pretty well. During the session, we walked back and forth past a dog across the street without lungeing.

This evening, a Corso passed only 10 feet away, staring at him(sure to set him off under normal circumstances) I simply sidestepped, said "AH no" and turned him away each time he started to stare back, and the dog passed without incident. seems the key is to break eye contact.

we did the same with another dog on the way home- told him no, and turned him a circle. Three times, until he settled beside me to walk away.

My neighbours, who have seen Shamas actively try to attack dogs on our street, are very impressed!

We plan to do a few private sessions, to familiarise Shamas with the new rules, work on his coping skills and teach him some basics(he got very frustrated trying to learn alongside Angel, and not being able to pick it up) then start him in the reactive dog workshop. She does this in a group format in a park. Plenty of space, and dog exposure so he can learn to behave around other dogs.
 
Also, she thinks he's part Chow Chow. From his ears, and tongue. I'd thought shephard....as shephard and chow were the only breeds I knew with spots like his. And now he's going grey, he's getting a red-brown shading on his bottom half of his muzzle.

He's also got that thick mane, and his ears stand up when he sleeps, and rest sideways, and back like some shephards I've known. they're not Lab ears, to be sure.

I'd be curious to DNA test him, just for fun
 

Beanwood

Administrator
So it looks like I've done well on the anxiety front--shamas' dog aggression is not fear-based. He's cocky, and needs to be humbled a little. That's what the trainer says. If he was fearful, he'd not hold his tail so high, or his ears forward.

So when I see his ears go up, and before the tail goes, I'm to start taking steps backward, while letting go of the short end of the lead--this will cause him to self-interrupt when he reaches the end, and turn to see what's up. Then, I change directions and circle him back around to try again. repeat as many times as necessary until he looks but doesn't react. Praise that. Look, don't act.

Here's the thing.


No dog need to be humbled.


Dogs aren't cocky.


His body language - in the context of the situation he is in ie; another dog in close proximity is telling you he is aroused and vigilant - probably


Self interrupting in a dog that is already aroused and anxious will not work. Pulling him away, then pulling him back, which in effect is what you are doing is simply putting "pressure" on Shamas. ( as per above...think about what Shamas is telling you....)



Shamas needs space and time to help him process his environment. WAIT for Shamas to let you know he is OK and ready to move on OR he is asking to move away.


Find a positive reinforcement trainer who will work with your vet, you and most importantly taking a holistic approach to Shamas. Don't waste your money on shit trainers, you are better than that, and have made some amazing progress with Shamas.
 
My thoughts exactly, I was concerned when I read your words about his body language, I think she totally misread it. I am not criticising you for one moment, I have been misled as well and once, many years ago, even rolled one of my dogs into 'submission' - how could I have been so under the trainer's spell. It makes me shudder in retrospect, but I trusted the trainer before I realised there was a far better way.
 

UncleBob

Administrator
Staff member
The 1970s rang - they'd like their dominance theory back, please! ;)

Seriously though, the whole dominance / alpha dog / show him you are the boss nonsense has been well and truly debunked for many years now. The fact that some trainers haven't moved with the times should indicate to you the quality of the trainers. Please don't try to humble Shamas - he isn't being cocky. Trying to suppress a dog's body language - stopping him from communicating with other dogs - will not end well.
 
@UncleBob That was exactly what I thought when she told me to make him wait before letting him through the door frame. Um, no thanks. I have a very good reason to send him through first, and I'm not about to make him sit and wait, risking another dog attack by him...just to put show him I'm leader. He already waits for my go-ahead to leave the house. That's good enough for me.

IT makes sense- to interrupt him before he can follow through with aggression. I already do that. The turning away,
...that's a tactic I use already. Trying again is new. Normally we get out of dodge. But the number of times we've gotten caught between multiple dogs, and Shamas has gone "attack dog" without an escape route....he NEEDS to learn to walk past them.

I'm already not following her protocol on leash handling--I refuse to apply pressure until he sits. He's got his "sit button" so why should I pull on the leash to make him sit, if I can just tap his bum?

I was trying to find a trainer who'd come to the house and train without using bribes. Shamas can't focus on me, so without his focus on me, I can't offer treats in a timely fashion to reward behavior. I use the leash to control the lunge, but I've only used a martingale, or head collar for close up work up to now(except for a couple of days with a prong, where I decided it was too harsh for this dog) I can't harness walk him, because he Needs me to guide him as to his responses. Without quick instructions, he goes aggressive..with them, he follows me.


WAIT for Shamas to let you know he is OK and ready to move on OR he is asking to move away.
This is our standard response, naturally--I see him react. I stop, let him look, then I act based on his responses. Usually it's a Uturn. Sometimes it's a wide berth, passing by. Since getting Angel, we pass by much more often
 

Jacqui-S

Moderator
Location
Fife, Scotland
except for a couple of days with a prong, where I decided it was too harsh for this dog
I have to say that on this forum we absolutely DO NOT support the use of prong collars under any circumstances.
Martingale collars also fall into the category of potential aversives, though if fitted correctly may be acceptable (a grey area).
I know you didn't continue using it Shama's Mom, but I can't let this sit without commenting with my Moderator hat on.
 
I have to say that on this forum we absolutely DO NOT support the use of prong collars under any circumstances.
Martingale collars also fall into the category of potential aversives, though if fitted correctly may be acceptable (a grey area).
I know you didn't continue using it Shama's Mom, but I can't let this sit without commenting with my Moderator hat on.
I have to say I agree here. I used it on advice from my father, whose trainer swore by it. Shamas had a panic attack, and physically dragged me 4 blocks, in spite of the pinch of the collar. The result--psychological trauma resulting in years of work to even get him to face that area of town again.

The Martingale, I use backwards--I sit it loose, and look for it to stay that way. at it's tightest, it fits like a normal collar. I like it because Shamas can feel the changes in the leash, without pressure on his neck. And he listens to the chain jingle when I twitch my wrist to cue a turn.

Hubby and I have discussed the new trainer and agree--we will not be using the woman again. Not only this, but we will advise the vet on the advise we were given. I called this trainer on my vet's advice. Hubby would prefer at this point not to use a trainer at all. With everything I've accomplished with the help of this forum...he doesn't see the need.

If you actually LISTEN.....the advice on how to handle the lead.....pull up until he sits, then relieve pressure as a reward for sitting. It's clear as day.

I Will NOT choke my beloved pet into submission! I did not get this far with him to start abusing him now!

I will take out the Halti for a while, and give his neck a break, after what I've realised about the sessions harshness. See how he does on it. It means no muzzle while he wears the Halti...but he's not under a muzzle order-I do that by choice. And at least the Halti lets him carry a water bottle to stay cool
 
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