Shamas the rescue....journey of a pound dog

[Shamas mom]

Morning walk went well- no dog reactions, but plenty of dogs around. We even had one walk towards us on our side and Shams didnt fall apart. They crossed the street once they got about 25 feet from us, and Shamas was still calm and his tail was wagging as he watched them cross and pass. I gave him chicken.

That yellow lab that menaces us was oncoming on our way home, so we ended up turning around and walking back up the way we came, then ducking onto a side street to let them get home. Shamas looked back a few times, but we had enough distance that the dog didn't go off on us. The handler is downright hostile to us even though it's her dog going off not mine. I get that Shamas was as bad as her dog a few months ago, and it was mutual lungng...but Shamas barely reacts to her dog going bonkers now and I always make a point to give them space if I see them coming. The first time we ever saw them, her dog tried to attack Shamas from accross the street, and she nearlly got herself bitten managing him(she grabbed his muzzle), while I had to struggle to drag Shamas away from the threat. He was only on a collar back then, and was fearful of all dogs. That lab has lunged at Shamas every time since. Her yanking on his gentle leader and telling him off doesn't help matters any. The best thing I can figure to do is keep Shamas well away from them if I see them. I avoid their house too-he'll lunge the window if we go down their street.

This afternoon Shamas went off a bit on Bob on his front porch...I checked him with a few tugs on his lead and verbal negative markers, then treated with chicken when he sat. Then I let him sniff around the porch and introduced him to Bob's front yard and porch too, to show him there's nothing to fear about that porch. bob and Scott are not worried about Shamas' behavior, but agree that it needs addressing. They're both happy to work with me to help work him through it. Their dogs are rescues too, and Tiko was abused...so they know that dogs come with baggage.

Their new girl has a barking problem that they're working on-she goes on alert, and barks at anything she thinks is going on outside. She does it a bit in the yard, but Shamas is handling it OK- I've watched him indecisive as she barked from the other side of the fence, and he wanted to react, but I was at the door calling him. I won out. Another time he reacted, so he was brought in, and put on a 6foot leash with me to pee, and offered treats everytime he looked and returned to his business of backyard things(sniffing, playing, looking at me) No fence fighting as of yet but the opportunity has not been given. I don't leave him unattended outside, neither do they leave Roxy. We're both always at our back door when our dogs are out

 

[snowbunny]

This afternoon Shamas went off a bit on Bob on his front porch

Why do you think he did this? What motivated the behaviour?

I checked him with a few tugs on his lead and verbal negative markers,

How would this have affected how he felt as opposed to what he did?

 

[Shamas mom]

Why do you think he did this? What motivated the behaviour?

Our front door is only about 6 feet from their front door, so when they open it, Shamas is surprised at their sudden appearance and goes off. I think he believes that they are coming out onto HIs property, as we share a mutual driveway, and the only thing seperating their porch from our driveway is a fence-like surrounding that they built arround their porch to prevent the wheelchair from rolling off. I also suspect that he doesnt understand what is on the other side of the barrier, as it's high, and he can't see it. Therefore he can't see if Tiko is on the old man's lap

How would this have affected how he felt as opposed to what he did?

You may need to explain this one to me...I'm getting better about understanding the positive behavior modification, but its still a new concept.

I checked and marked the lunging/threatening behavior,(to teach him that this is unacceptable) and praised him for being calm, and let him go see what was over there. I don't use hard yanks, just a short, quick movement on the lead to get his attention and an AH!no!" He's already met Bob, and Scott..and knows them not to be a threat-but he goes off when he first notices them. After the initial alert, he's friendly(once he knows it's them and the dogs aren't with them) I can't allow the lunging/threatening, because he actually hurt ME, as I held him back one day without checking the behavior. I was scratched accross my face, arms, and legs. And there's a man whho walks his dog who has asked that we put him inside, because he was sure that we couldn't hold Shamas back from attacking his dog one day. So I'm open to suggestion.

 

[snowbunny]

You may need to explain this one to me...I'm getting better about understanding the positive behavior modification, but its still a new concept.

Heh, OK, so I'll tell you the approach I'm trying to use here - but with humans, rather than dogs

If I come in and say "Lead jerks are bad! They're going to make your dog more fearful! GAAAAHHH!" then you're more likely to put your defences up. Instead, I'm trying this respectful communication thing, which is a bit of a novel concept to me, so be gentle
I'm joking, of course, but I love that you're trying to use more positive methods and, instead of saying "this is what you're doing is wrong and here's why", by asking those questions, I was hoping to make you think it through yourself to get better understanding. With me?

So, to go back to the conversation. I may come across as being patronising - I'm really not meaning to be, but just trying to explain myself clearly. Apologies in advance if you start rolling your eyes

This afternoon Shamas went off a bit on Bob on his front porch

So, this is behaviour you don't like. I get it. A barking and lunging dog is one or many of: annoying, embarrassing, painful, dangerous.... the list goes on. It's undesirable behaviour.
When we want to change behaviour, we can either do so by reinforcing the behaviour we want to encourage, or by punishing behaviour that we want to discourage. That's what the general "training" way of thinking tells us, and it's true. We can reward our dog for making good choices, set them up for success yada yada yada, or we can punish them for making bad choices. You can do either or both. But my question is this: take a step back from the behaviour and think about what is causing the behaviour. What motivates it? Lunging and barking is communication. He is trying to achieve something; we just have to work out what that is. Because, if we can work on that instead, we can change his emotional state so that he no longer feels the need to react, then you have achieved the result of diminishing the reactivity by making him happier about the situation, not simply by getting him to comply in spite of how he feels.

Now, obviously, dogs can't tell us precisely how they're feeling, so we have to put in some guess work, but when it comes to barking and lunging, it tends to be one of two things:
1. I'm so excited, I want o go and say hi, but I can't because of this lead, it's so frustrating, gaaaaaaaaagggghhhh!!
or
2. You're too close! I need space! Back off!!

Shamas is very likely the second one, right? Even though he knows this dog, in that moment, the fact he was barking and lunging wasn't so he could go and say hi, right? It was because he was uncomfortable.
However, in actual fact, it doesn't really matter which of these it is. The point is that the dog is over-aroused in both cases, to the extent he is reacting.

Now, let's go back to this:

I checked him with a few tugs on his lead and verbal negative markers, then treated with chicken when he sat

Assuming Shamas is example 2 above, what does this achieve? The tugs and sharp words stop him barking, and then he sits and gets chicken. You're happy because your problem has gone. But has it addressed his problem? His problem is that he's uncomfortable with the proximity of the dog. He's been trying to tell him to back up and give him space. That's normal dog communication, yet he was told off for it. The behaviour was suppressed, rather than the problem solved. He is still sat at the same distance from the problem. The chicken for sitting might give a little bit of counter-conditioning, but it's unlikely because you don't change emotional responses when your dog is already worried.
Still, let's take this through to is conclusion and say that through this method, you end up with Shamas not barking and lunging in this situation again. From your point of view, that is problem solved, but from Shamas' point of view, nothing has changed other than the fact he knows he shouldn't bark and lunge when he's unhappy. This form of (perfectly normal) canine communication has been cut off.
Dog communication is on a sliding scale, as I'm sure you're aware. At the lower end of this, you get lip licks, the dog turning his head away, whale eye, that sort of thing. It progresses through a lip raise, a low growl, an air snap. Not necessarily all easy to see, but the problem is that when we suppress any one of these behaviours, it gets skipped in future chains. When you don't address the dog's emotional state and simply suppress the behaviour, nothing has changed in how the dog feels, he's just unable to communicate that anymore. So, when it gets too much he has no choice but to escalate up the chain to the next behaviour, whatever that may be.

Still with me?

This is why I go on (and on, and on) about the why. About addressing the dog's emotional needs rather than focussing on the behaviour. Because if you do that, the behaviour goes away. If Shamas becomes comfortable with the dog at that distance, he will no longer bark and lunge because there is no need.
However, if you use punishment to suppress the behaviour (and "punishment" is used in its scientific sense, of anything that makes a behaviour less likely to occur again in the future, which is what you're trying to achieve with the corrections you're using), then you're not only cutting off the dog's channels of communication without addressing how he feels about the situation, but you're also making the situation even more of a negative one for him, compounding his negative emotional state.

Theo Stewart wrote an analogy which is quite thought-provoking: https://positively.com/contributors/heading-for-the-dog-park-with-a-dog-reactive-dog/
Obviously, you're not behaving aggressively towards Shamas as Gorilla is to Human, but the same principles hold true whenever you are trying to suppress what without addressing the why. Human is still afraid of Lion even if Gorilla's efforts at suppressing the behaviour are successful.

Any questions/comments? How did I do?

 

[snowbunny]

One other thing that I read just today. Wise words from Dr Amy Cook (who specialises in treating anxious and fearful dogs):

He is right to feel afraid and tense, and when he learns new information, he will be right to feel relaxed and at ease. He's always going to be right.

 

[Shamas mom]

You explained it really well. I'll try to limit the checking of his lunging, though I can't completely let it go(it's a danger to all involved if allowed to continue) Let me explain a little about where I stand..what I think, feel and see. We have a good dialogue going here, and I'm learning a lot.

When Shamas sees a neighbour pull in on the other side, there is only a small fence, and they come in on ground level. They pull in in a car, or come out of their back yard. He has warning. He doesn't react. I've had plenty of time to play LAM.

Bob and Scott have their front door only 6 feet from ours, and have dogs. We don't associate with them if they have the dogs, but Shamas doesn't know if they have the dogs if they're on the porch-so he goes off. He can't see them. Once he sees that there's no dog, he settles down and goes over to say hello. He likes the people. It's the initial "going off" that needs managing. If we can get him to the point of not spazzing out when their door opens, I'll be happy. I'm not worried at this point whether or not he can accept their dogs....it's the people I'm concerned with right now. we can work on the dogs later....from a distance, and off-property.

I don't like checking Shamas-I'd much rather move to a distance and treat him once I'm able to get his attention back on me. But when I'm on my own front lawn, and they're only a few feet from my door...and he's intent on attacking(or at least it looks like it to passers-by)....checking his behavior is sort of my natural response. This 'attack' response of his only lasts about 30 seconds or so, then he goes back to being Shamas, and is friendly. That spot where I've played LAM...It's like a magic spot now. Once I get him to that spot, he sort of transforms. Even though it's closer, he recognises through his haze where he is and stops, sits and looks at me for a treat. I always have my bag when I'm outside. Bob now gives him fresh chicken if he comes over to him on his own, and I give him chicken when he's calm. Scott just sort of chuckles at him when he goes off-he's retrained aggressive pit bulls and thinks Shamas is funny. So Shamas doesn't last long in the face of Scott's reaction lol.

Because we go from peaceful yard to sudden appearance of person, we don't get the progression of warning signs in this situation as we would if say, someone were coming toward us. In which case he'd slow down, turn his head, stop at a pole, turn his body, yawn, etc. He gives me plenty of warning on walks. This is basically an AH!PEOPLE! situation. Like when dogs come around blind corners and he tries to rip their throats out(or so it looks like to their handlers) his AH PEOPLE! response is a tad extreme......

 

[snowbunny]

Great! So I think I understand a bit better! I have something you can do, but I’m just on my way out for a walk.
I wouldn’t beat yourself up about your reflexive behaviours, especially when you’re switching over it’s perfectly natural that your muscle memory will kick in. There’s a difference between understanding and being able to override your own instincts sometimes! I still occasionally sharply say, “Shadow!” if he lunges. I know it’s wrong and it won’t help the situation and I try not to do it, but it sometimes happens without me thinking. Just like his own reaction is happening without him thinking about it. I can empathise with him because of that! Anyway, I’ll get back to you after walkies!

 

[snowbunny]

OK, so what I would do when he spazzes out (love that turn of phrase, I can so apply it to Shadow at times), I would take a handful of treats and throw them on the floor. The first time, second time, third time, he might not stop spazzing to eat them, but he'll know they're there, and once he's calmed down enough, he'll eat them. The snuffling around on the floor (if it's grass, even better) will help calm him further; hunting out food is amazing for using a lot of the brain and lowering arousal. Dogs (or anyone, for that matter) don't like being wound up. It feels icky, so lowering his arousal will make him feel better. Over time, you'll find that you end up with just a woof and he immediately looks to the ground for the food. This shows that he's learning the association - the door opening is still scary (hence the woof), but it is a predictor of the food arriving on the floor. Not only is the food good in itself, but it provides him with a way to soothe himself. At this point, he is starting to make the transition through counter-conditioning until eventually, you don't get the woof at all because the door opening is no longer scary. At this point, you can reward for calmness, but there's no need to continue throwing treats on the floor to lower the arousal if you don't want, because he has learned that the door opening isn't scary anymore. His emotional response to the opening door has changed for good.

I started using this approach at the end of the winter, when I was still in our winter apartment, as people knocked on the door. Shadow is a real alert barker. I was surprised how quickly it took effect. I didn't get a chance to finish it off before moving back to our summer home, which is in the middle of nowhere so no-one knocks on our door, but I will do it again when we go back this coming winter and I know that I'll make really quick progress with it.

I know it can sound strange, as if you're rewarding the behaviour you don't like, but here's the thing: when your dog is in a state of heightened arousal, he really can't learn effectively, so we're not training behaviour at all. Instead, we are using classical counter conditioning (remember Pavlov?) to change his emotional response to his trigger. And, as discussed above, once you change that emotional response, the "bad" behaviour just fades away.

 

[Shamas mom]

Ah yes-the Pavlov food-toss lol. I use that when I feed the cats, because he used to try to take their food. He used to believe that only he should be fed, and everyone elses food was also his food. So I started putting down his food, feeding Matt on the cat tower, and doing the food-toss when I step into the cat-room to prevent the lunge for the door. He no longer steals the cats food unless it's been left overnight where he can get it....because hes a dog, and it's food lol!

I almost always have food in my waist pouch, and lately I've been carrying fresh meat because I object to the price of processed dog treats when I can buy fresh meat for the same or less. So I'll try to remember to food toss next time.

This afternoon we were out, and Bob came out with TIko...but I was at the driveway instead of the lawn...so I was in a position to let him retreat up the side of the house. Which means he barked, grumbled and whined but didnt lunge, threaten and growl. Which is impressive, as I didn't have my pouches on that time. He's always better if he can retreat.

 

[Shamas mom]

Shamas saw bob on his porch o the way home from our morning walk, and didn't fall apart at all. SO it's obviously a matter of not knowing whether or not the dogs are with them, and being surprised by their presence when we're out and they step outside. He even came out of our house, and went over to say hi when I was standing there talking to Bob, after he'd dropped off his Timmies tray under the table.

During the walk we saw the Yellow Lab...I saw the owner stand there for a second deciding whether to keep straight, or walk toward us, then turn our way. SO I got out a handful of chicken ready for the expected spazzing from the Yellow Lab. It came, but Shamas was so busy with his chicken that he didn't do more than half-woof in return as we walked past. I think what we're dealing with here is another reactive dog, and a handler using aversive training. The way I figure, if I can bring Shamas to the point of ignoring him, he'll not feel the need to react to us. Poor thing, being shouted at every time he tries to scare other dogs away....

Shamas is getting some rubbing from the harness again. I decided to give him a break this afternoon, and take him just on his collar. It was funny, because he transformed into the perfect picture of a perfectly trained dog lol! He decided it was a training session, and endeavoured to earn as many treats as possible. If I stopped, he sat in front of me, he walked slightly behind me, loose-leash. He did not pull, he grinned the whole time.

I wish he could walk like that if I added distractions! LOL!

 

[Shamas mom]

AB is having troubling handling Shamas on the shoulder-clip harness get-up, without that front clip, and I don't want to waste the money on a replacement that will wear out after another 2 months...so I picked up a thick slip-lead. However, I set it like I did the old Martingale(that I somehow lost), with the stopper loose so he can't strangle. It's enough to give him a gentle reminder if he pulls, but not so loose that he can pull out of it. He walks like a perfect gentleman for her and I'm keeping his harness on him with a regular leash handy so that I can return him to that in high-distraction situations. like morning walks, down the train tracks at dusk or if a dog is on-coming. Wouldn't want to risk a lunge or anything on a training lead.

Unfortunately, with the shape of his neck, to collar-walk him, I have to snug up his collar to the point where it looks too tight. Otherwise, he can slip it. I dont mind using just his collar, but wouldn't hand him to a youngster with it on-especialy one who has a tendency to hold the leash pretty lightly. AB is the one who lost the leash to a rabbit last week. She doesn't like to do much besides let him walk-so if he gets it in his head to pull, off he goes. The slip lead is great for that walk style-he checks his own behavior, and you could see how he relaxed he became with the "guidance" offered by the changing pressure on the lead as he moved ahead or behind her. Normally he feels the need to guard, or at least lead her, and pulls her down the street....tonight he trotted at her side, and looked up at her occasionally. He stopped looking back to me for guidance after about half a block because he realised she was confidently leading him.

 

[Shamas mom]

Also-an interesting thing: Shamas took to that slip like it's completely natural to him-a known quantity. Which might be why he was never collar-and-leash broken, and why they said at the pound that he's beautiful on the leash but I found the opposite.

 

[Shamas mom]

An 8m old Mastiff pup just moved in a couple of days ago, two doors down. Shamas saw him for the first time this morning while he was chilling on Bobs front lawn(they're friends now) and went high arousal but not outright aggressive. his hackles went up and he lunged and barked but didn't growl or slobber. I had him on a back clip harness at the time, because we'd planned a relaxed walk until he saw Bob and Tiko and went into management mode. so he had the ability to fully jump and lunge, whicih I don't like..but he checked with a simple "Hey! That's not how we make friends!", and I moved him off a bit to calm down. He continued to look for the dog after it went into its own back yard(they live in the front, and go around the house to the yard) and barked again when it came out. the dog was unbothered, and just stood, waiting to see if he'd come play with him. He's a good calm boy-I went over to introduce us after dropping Shamas off, and he's HUGE! that dog's head is bigger than mine. He came out to say hello, and did some tricks for me. Then he saw Scott, and took off over there. I explained a little about Shamas, his history as we've been able to piece together, his past, and ongoing issues. SO they know what to expect if they run into us. the owner is not worried about Shamas' behavior- he didn't read any aggression.

Before the Mastiff, we saw Tiko. we were heading out, and i had planned a loose-lead walk...so I put Shamas on the Kurgo harness...but on the back clip because I don't trust the front with the wear on the buckle. As we got to the sidewalk, I realised Tiko and Bob were down by the tracks, which is where we usually start our walk-so we went down to Barb's instead. I used the hedge at her property to create a blind, and had Shamas sit. He was still a little arounsed, so I slid on the slip lead to just turn him around gently and moved him a bit further back, leaving the slip on in case I needed to turn him again. It took a few turns and movements to keep him calm but we did it. Tiko finished his walk, and returned home, and bob came back out for his morning sit-out on his porch. That was the end of Shamas' walk. He set it into his head to go visit Bob, and tried to drag me home. So I took off the slip, and went back to the harness lead...and stopped Shamas if he pulled too hard(he growled out his frustration once at being constantly stopped) then let him pull me over to see Bob. The moring walk was officially cancelled-Shamas was going to hang out with Bob instead lol. Scott came home while we were there. Shamas alert barked, retreated, realised who it was, and approached head down, tail wagging. Quick sniff and retreat to 3 feet with a stress-lick under his tail. I let him lead. Introductions are always led by Shamas.

 

[Shamas mom]

Shamas and I were walking this morning and a loose small dog came up to him. it met him nose to nose. He was tense, and gave it a "back off" nip on the (upper shoulder)??. The thing yelped and trotted off. We continued on our walk, in the opposite direction. No sign of owner anywhere.

I think he might have been OK if it had given him a more indirect approach, but it came straight to his face and stood there. He'd tried the first level social cues..peeing on things, etc...and it came directly up to his face in a straight line. at a trot.

Bit of a shock for the little guy, but Shamas didn't seem any worse for wear. He left when I asked, once the dog was out of the way. He wouldnt leave with the dog coming his way-probably because a loose dog posed a low-level threat and he didn't want it behind him while he was leashed.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Just catching up on all your posts about Shamas. Reactivity to other dogs is really my Achilles Heel or biggest flash point or whatever the right term is. I really admire all your patience and think I'll learn a lot hearing about Shamas and all the training advice given here.

 

[Shamas mom]

Just catching up on all your posts about Shamas. Reactivity to other dogs is really my Achilles Heel or biggest flash point or whatever the right term is. I really admire all your patience and think I'll learn a lot hearing about Shamas and all the training advice given here.

Its been a long haul, but the people here have really helped us through. When I got him, he'd have outright attacked a dog that approached like the dog did today. His phobia of other dogs was bad...time and patience has taught Shamas that not all dogs are a threat to him now, and he's willing to give them a chance.

I'm grateful to the people here who have helped us~ my area has very limited resources for retraining, and they don't really include my issues. Most trainers in my area are trained to deal with obedience and sporting.

 

[Shamas mom]

Good walk tonight. We let the kids stay home(all teens) and just the OH and I went out. That means a good clip, and no need for Shamas to feel protective of AB. She really is getting better about her fear of dogs, with having one of her own- but between having a child who's afraid of strange dogs, and a dog who's afraid of strange dogs...it can get a bit tense sometimes. Shamas walked right past the dog we saw. He didn't lunge at the cat....luckily, I saw the skunk first and we crossed the street, leaving the thing snuffling in the grass.

AB's fear of dogs stems from a "friend" who thought it was funny to let her giant mix-breed lunge and growl at the lead toward her(property aggression) until her dad came and dragged it inside. She wasn't afraid before that, being raised around dogs, and walking Chance (neighbours shephard) for nearly two years. We've worked very hard to rebuild her confidence around dogs, and she and Shamas have learned together to trust when out on the walk. She can now walk with her shoulders square, and doesn't immediately freeze upon seeing dogs, even if we've got Shamas(she feared his reaction, which only triggered him to react because she was shortening up on his lead or saying "Mom!Dog!"). it helps that Shamas is becoming more confident-if HE can walk by, so can she. After all, his fear was crippling! AB is now learning to walk by dogs with her shoulders square, and I can see her becoming more confident by the day with Shamas walking calmly at her side. I'd LOVE to have him trained as an emotional therapy dog....we'll see how things go-one thing at a time. I don't even know if his temperament is even enough. Be a good 6m-a year before his own issues are worked through enough to start considering anything like that and by then I'll likely be better off starting with a puppy. He'll be 8 by the time I could start serious training. Still, he's really good for her. The acheivement of training a terrified dog to a building confidence is great. I hadn't realised just how many dogs were around here before we got Shamas....we just weren't out and about during regular dog walking hours. So I didn't realise how nervous AB was around dogs either. Luckily, I have experience with Anxiety, and coping techniques. I can help her through, and have the DR in my back pocket ready to go with an update on her issue.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I'd LOVE to have him trained as an emotional therapy dog....we'll see how things go-one thing at a time. I don't even know if his temperament is even enough. Be a good 6m-a year before his own issues are worked through enough to start considering anything like that and by then I'll likely be better off starting with a puppy. He'll be 8 by the time I could start serious training.

You just really never know, though...Shamas might surprise you and be ready for therapy training before you think. And it actually sounds like he's already a therapy dog for AB, no official certification needed.

 

[Shamas mom]

You just really never know, though...Shamas might surprise you and be ready for therapy training before you think. And it actually sounds like he's already a therapy dog for AB, no official certification needed.

Yes, he is unofficially serving the role. A couple of times, AB has been upset and told me "I need my dog" She keeps photo and video on her phone for when he's not present. He's just not allowed in certain places with her, like school and many stores. The only thing a certification would do is let him go everywhere. It's surpising how many places he CAN go though- most places that don't sell food will let dogs in now..they don't want them left outside in our temperature extremes. If we can't bring him with us to a place that I know is stresssful, I usually let her stay home.

This morning Shamas was with us when we ran some errands, and there was a loud noise, so he went and hid with AB in the back of the van. They're each other's support network. He looks to me for leadership, and her for support and play

 

[Shamas mom]

Shamas did well on our walk just now. There was a leaping, barking dog tied about 50feet from him while I was in getting my coffee but he was far more interested in looking for us, and ignored it.

On the way back wee didn't realise another dog was coming until it was upon us. I dont think it wears tags, because they were silent. Shamas jumped when he noticed it, and his growl seemed more a frustrated growl than aggression. He didn't fight me turning him away, and didn't outright lunge. It was definitely a jump, followed by standing at the full extension of his lead with fur on his back standing up. Unfortunately, because I didn't notice the dog coming, his jump left a pole between Shamas and I, so I couldn't easily reel him back. The dog completely ignored him and trotted straight past.