- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
@snowbunny said something to me about this. It is possible to get them off Allopurinol for three weeks and then week on it. This must be preferable? I'm sure @snowbunny will be along soon to help out with this.
The Labraventures of Carbón, Spanish (ex-) foster dog extraordinaire
- Thread starter Emily_Babbelhund
- Start date
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
Carbon's on the bed with me for the night. Neither of us could stand it otherwise. We're both spoiled! He's very quiet and relaxed now despite the evil cone head contraption. The bleeding has stopped.
Nothing like reading up after the fact, but what he's had done is called a scrotal urethrostomy. Essentially he now wees out of where his scrotum used to be. My poor boy, I feel like I've Frankensteined him! However Dr. Google does seem to tell me that it was the right procedure for what was wrong with him and it's tried and true with few complications and generally good outcome. So let's see how my Frankenpup fares...
Positive news from the clinic today is that his kidney panel came back 100% normal, so that at least qualifies him for perhaps looking at some other options. Because of his wonky kidney values and heart worm, we couldn't even think about moving off the allopurinol until this spring.
Nothing like reading up after the fact, but what he's had done is called a scrotal urethrostomy. Essentially he now wees out of where his scrotum used to be. My poor boy, I feel like I've Frankensteined him! However Dr. Google does seem to tell me that it was the right procedure for what was wrong with him and it's tried and true with few complications and generally good outcome. So let's see how my Frankenpup fares...
Yep, made up a nice fresh batch while he was at the clinic. He had a small dinner tonight and breakfast is all ready for him.
Yes, I hope so. We were meant to look into alternative treatments for getting him off the Alopurinol altogether this year in Spain, but then COVID and we didn't go etc. etc. All that means he is overdue to have this all looked at.
Positive news from the clinic today is that his kidney panel came back 100% normal, so that at least qualifies him for perhaps looking at some other options. Because of his wonky kidney values and heart worm, we couldn't even think about moving off the allopurinol until this spring.
Sorry @Emily_Babbelhund , I realised that it might have been a bit insensitive of me to post about Bear weeing all the time, when you are going through this - bad timing from me.
- Location
- East Sussex
This must be so difficult for you to cope with, especially in a second language. I hope you both have a peaceful night. x
- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
If you come across alternative treatments please let me know! I would love to get Toby off this drug.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
No. not at all! We both could use a bit of the other: Bear could do a bit less, Carbon a bit more.
Joking aside, sounds like you are doing everything right, but Bear's just a little slow on the wee train. He'll get it, but that doesn't make it easier at the moment.
Hah, if only our dogs could chat together and average out each others' behaviours.No. not at all! We both could use a bit of the other: Bear could do a bit less, Carbon a bit more.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
From what I understand, it's pretty much milteforan or one other whose name is escaping me at the moment. @snowbunny would know. Neither are for dogs with kidney problems and both are very tough on the dogs. Milteforan has to be given in food bombs and prepared with gloves as the stuff is caustic. The other is given with a big fat needle. They aren't for the faint of heart and frankly they scare the bejeezus out of me.
Thank you.
The crying is stopped now and he's relaxing next to me under the covers in his normal spot on the bed. He's a tough cookie - I think he'll be much improved in the morning.
Candy
Biscuit Tin Guardian
- Location
- West Yorkshire, UK
Oh, poor, poor boy! My heart goes out to him and you! I know that pitiful crying all too well! Joy doesn't do it but Solstice always did after G.A. When she'd had her cruciate ligament surgery I rang the vet because I was so worried. He said that some dogs just do this. He didn't think she could be in pain because of the amount of analgesia they'd given her.He said he thought she just had a lot to tell me. When I was at work, Trevor said she didn't cry. As soon as I got home she started and it lasted for four days! It broke my heart, even though I knew she didn't do it when I wasn't there, or maybe because she didn't do it when I wasn't there! Hope you and your lovely lad manage a settled night.xxx
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
Poor you and poor Carbon, it is the anaesthetic that makes them cry, horrible. I didn't want to be too explicit when describing the op as didn't want to worry you, but that is what we used to do and all was fine. He must be in seventh heaven now he is in bed with Mum x
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
Oh what a carry on for you both Emily. That crying is heart rending, I didn't know about it when Cassie was spayed and she cried all night. At least it seems he got through that quite quickly. Poor lady.
I hope the reSt of the recovery goes well. It does all sound daunting, but it's good to read that it's a tried and tested method of alleviating the situation. Xx
I hope the reSt of the recovery goes well. It does all sound daunting, but it's good to read that it's a tried and tested method of alleviating the situation. Xx
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
@Emily_Babbelhund is Carbón’s Leish active? Milteforan or Glucantime are to get a flare-up under control, they are not for ongoing use. They are both very hard drugs for the dog. Glucantime is the one Luna had, the injection, and is hard on the kidneys, so only an option for dogs with good kidney function. Milteforan is easier on the kidneys but very hard on the digestion: it’s a liquid that you have to feed in “food bombs” which slip down the throat easily because if it comes into contact with the throat, it causes nasty burning. Many dogs go off their food with this drug because it makes them feel horrible. If the dog has good kidney function, I’d always choose Glucantime over Milteforan.
But, as I said, these drugs are not a substitute for Allopurinol. In fact, the Allo will be given in addition to either of these drugs. These are both only to bring a flare-up of active Leish under control, which will have been diagnosed with blood tests. If those have been done, I’d encourage you to post them in the “Living with Leish” FB group for the admins to look over. If they’ve not been done and/or there’s no active Leish, then there’s no reason to put Carbon through either of those drugs.
Allopurinol is the best drug to keep Leish under control once it is inactive. Once you’ve had three clear sets of blood tests (spaced six months apart) then some vets (not all, not mine) are happy for the dog to either go to a “one week on, three weeks off” schedule, or come off it altogether. Obviously continuing the regular six-month blood panels to keep an eye on the Leish activity.
Xanthine crystals are caused by the Allopurinol when the diet is too high in purines. From what you’ve said in the past, it sounded that you may have been a bit confused about the difference between purine and protein, so may have inadvertently been feeding low protein but high purine? Things like green leafy vegetables, sardines, broccoli are all very high in purines.
You also mentioned Carbón had to be on a low-protein diet because of poor renal function, but it sounds like his kidneys are fine now? In which case, he should be getting the same amount of protein as any other dog, but keeping purines low.
I would think that, unless you’ve had that 18 months of proof that the Leish is in remission, then he should probably stay on the Allo, and you put him onto a low purine kibble to take the pressure off you to get it right, and with regular checks for crystal build-up. It doesn’t need to be a specialist diet, just a kibble that is based on white fish or chicken should do. I know you prefer to home-cook (as do I) but controlling this variable means you can relax and determine whether it’s the Allo that’s the problem, or his diet.
Poor little man, I bet it’s going to be a bit confusing for him at first.
But, as I said, these drugs are not a substitute for Allopurinol. In fact, the Allo will be given in addition to either of these drugs. These are both only to bring a flare-up of active Leish under control, which will have been diagnosed with blood tests. If those have been done, I’d encourage you to post them in the “Living with Leish” FB group for the admins to look over. If they’ve not been done and/or there’s no active Leish, then there’s no reason to put Carbon through either of those drugs.
Allopurinol is the best drug to keep Leish under control once it is inactive. Once you’ve had three clear sets of blood tests (spaced six months apart) then some vets (not all, not mine) are happy for the dog to either go to a “one week on, three weeks off” schedule, or come off it altogether. Obviously continuing the regular six-month blood panels to keep an eye on the Leish activity.
Xanthine crystals are caused by the Allopurinol when the diet is too high in purines. From what you’ve said in the past, it sounded that you may have been a bit confused about the difference between purine and protein, so may have inadvertently been feeding low protein but high purine? Things like green leafy vegetables, sardines, broccoli are all very high in purines.
You also mentioned Carbón had to be on a low-protein diet because of poor renal function, but it sounds like his kidneys are fine now? In which case, he should be getting the same amount of protein as any other dog, but keeping purines low.
I would think that, unless you’ve had that 18 months of proof that the Leish is in remission, then he should probably stay on the Allo, and you put him onto a low purine kibble to take the pressure off you to get it right, and with regular checks for crystal build-up. It doesn’t need to be a specialist diet, just a kibble that is based on white fish or chicken should do. I know you prefer to home-cook (as do I) but controlling this variable means you can relax and determine whether it’s the Allo that’s the problem, or his diet.
Poor little man, I bet it’s going to be a bit confusing for him at first.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
@Jelinga , is bleeding normal for the first few days? We went out this morning (first wee since bringing him home last night) and once again after peeing he bled an amount of fresh blood from the incision site. It's worrying.
I have to admit, I'm freaked out by the fact that he now urinates out of this big hole where his balls used to be. The wee comes out in a messy splash, like a hose pipe with a wonky nozzle. It makes me worry about urine burns on his skin. Carbon is very uncomfortable this morning, standing up is clearly painful. That means along our very short walk he kept sitting down, which of course means that the open incision is making contact with the ground. How is this not going to get infected? It all makes me worry. I don't know if I would have Ok'ed this procedure if I'd understood and I feel guilty about not asking more/better questions. I thought I understood but I didn't and I feel like I've let Carbon down.
Hopefully I'll feel differently after I've spoken with his regular vet and once Carbon has had a better chance to heal.
For now I've given him his pain meds, cleaned his wound and he's resting comfortably on the sofa.
I have to admit, I'm freaked out by the fact that he now urinates out of this big hole where his balls used to be. The wee comes out in a messy splash, like a hose pipe with a wonky nozzle. It makes me worry about urine burns on his skin. Carbon is very uncomfortable this morning, standing up is clearly painful. That means along our very short walk he kept sitting down, which of course means that the open incision is making contact with the ground. How is this not going to get infected? It all makes me worry. I don't know if I would have Ok'ed this procedure if I'd understood and I feel guilty about not asking more/better questions. I thought I understood but I didn't and I feel like I've let Carbon down.
Hopefully I'll feel differently after I've spoken with his regular vet and once Carbon has had a better chance to heal.
For now I've given him his pain meds, cleaned his wound and he's resting comfortably on the sofa.
Atemas
UK Tour Guide
- Location
- North Cambridgeshire
@Emily_Babbelhund hope you can get answers to questions to help you stop worrying so much (but I’d be freaked out too). Really feel for you and Carbon - just all sounds horrible but very early days after such an operation. Stay strong
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
@snowbunny Thank you, Fiona, for the detailed explanation. Glucantime was the med whose name was escaping me. I know both of those are 28 day protocols, not ongoing. The way it had been explained to me was that if his kidney function was normal but he was still testing positive for Leish, either of these could be used to try to whack the Leish into non-detectible levels. Then after a year of non-detectable levels, he could come off the Alopurinol. However every vet I've spoken to so far has been reluctant to even consider milteforan or glucantime for Carbon as he had the poor kidney history. My vet here in Germany thought that if he had another normal kidney panel this spring, it could be a possibility.
Very good point about the diet. Oddly enough, he was on a low purine diet - fresh/raw but commercially prepared - the entire time we were in Cornwall. That seemed to do him in, but of course it could have just been timing - stones that had built up from earlier had simply reached the point where they were causing problems, "correlation and not causation" and all that.
Luckily his vet here in Germany has a lot of experience with Leish dogs from her Greek dog rescue experience, so we now need to sit down and have a "come to Jesus" talk about his diet. I will listen. I don't want my devotion to home cooked to be a stumbling point.
Very good point about the diet. Oddly enough, he was on a low purine diet - fresh/raw but commercially prepared - the entire time we were in Cornwall. That seemed to do him in, but of course it could have just been timing - stones that had built up from earlier had simply reached the point where they were causing problems, "correlation and not causation" and all that.
Luckily his vet here in Germany has a lot of experience with Leish dogs from her Greek dog rescue experience, so we now need to sit down and have a "come to Jesus" talk about his diet. I will listen. I don't want my devotion to home cooked to be a stumbling point.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
I've just spoken to his regular vet who assures me the bleeding is normal. We've got a check up with her tomorrow afternoon so I think I'll feel better about the whole thing then. Today we'll just lay low and let Carbon heal.
Thanks for letting me vent here, it makes me feel less alone with this stuff.
Thanks for letting me vent here, it makes me feel less alone with this stuff.
- Location
- Cornwall , UK
So pleased you have had this chat with your Vet , have a restful day , thinking of you both xxxxx
- Location
- East Sussex
I'm glad you've had some reassurance from your regular vet - I think I'd be a bit freaked out too if I hadn't been expecting such major surgery. You're always doing the best for your boy so have a restful day. x
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK